Advice to men
Introduction
A key aim of this book is to point to the future, not least in terms of working relations both generally and especially in terms of the interaction between men and women, at whatever level. It should be borne in mind that the people interviewed for this study are already working at a senior level and their ‘advice’ is based not only on their position, but their largely successful experience of climbing the promotion ladder. In addition, a number commented that – in their current position, at least – they had no problems with any of the men with whom they worked. Fiona said:
For the first time really in my working life I’m the oldest in the senior team. Some of our senior team are relatively young. And they’re great, absolutely great, I have no quarrels whatsoever.
This may, of course, have been a consequence not only of her being the most senior member of the team, but also the chief executive. Carrie was also very positive and felt that ‘the men that I work with are pretty good about it, so it’s really hard; it’s hard to talk about men that way for me’.
As many of the participants nevertheless point out, there are still far more men than women in chief executive roles within the public as well as the private sector, so there is perhaps some way to go, hence the request for information, opinion and advice on what could be done to make improvements in the longer term. Given that there is still a gender imbalance at the ‘top table’, therefore, we were particularly keen to find out from senior women what advice they would give to senior men in terms of helping to improve matters. A number of key messages emerged, as described and discussed in this chapter. In the next chapter, we aim to summarise the women’s reflections on their own careers in terms of the advice they might give to other women as they progress through their careers.
Listening, learning and being there more
Bella was one of a number of the women interviewed who felt that men needed to listen more – and more effectively:
I’m often having meetings with men where I just think ‘you’re not listening to what I’m saying’ and I find that very frustrating or ‘you’re not listening to what someone else is saying’ sitting round the table. Often you have these meetings and a really good point is made and it’s just completely ridden over by the chair; they just carry on on their own trajectory … I do think we have to try and avoid those stereotypes because they tend to reinforce … but … there is a tendency that goes hand in hand with that sort of driven confidence, of not listening properly to people and I think it’s really important because you lose those experiences … That would be my advice to men to try and listen a bit more.
Carrie also referred to the need for men to listen more, but for her this was also about being thorough in gathering evidence before making a decision, something that perhaps men were less good at doing, as discussed earlier, though this was arguably a generational issue:
So I would say, if anyone wanted to learn from me it’s to be thorough, investigate and don’t make promises too quickly, whether you’re a man or a woman. It’s hard for me because I’ve worked with so many men that are different. And actually the men of my generation and behind me I find are more like me than the men who came before me.
Gill suggested that being a good listener was part of ‘being accessible’, within the broader context of people skills, where she felt, as did many of the other women involved in this study, that there was a gender difference:
What could men learn from me? Being a good listener; spending time with people. I visited a department this morning and they were very unhappy bunnies for a variety of reasons, and I had to sit there and they went ‘moan’ and at the end I said, ‘sorry, well this is all rather depressing for you, isn’t it?’ and they said, ‘at least you came and listened’ and that meant a lot. I think men are not very good at that, so maybe they could learn to put themselves about, to listen, to be accessible.
Carrie agreed with the need for men to be ‘sometimes … more accessible or available than they are’, though she recognised in her particular case that her relationship with her (senior) male colleague meant that their respective roles perhaps required different degrees and types of accessibility:
I tend to be around all the time and not everyone believes that’s necessary … I’m the second in command, which is very interesting, because the dean may not be around as much as I am and he’s a successful leader. But he’s successful at the tasks that he needs to do, which are not necessarily my tasks.
Awareness of power
This perceived need to be accessible was reinforced by Ruth, who also commented on the power balances and tensions between men and women working together in senior positions:
I think it’s about an awareness of … male/female power, and if you’re not aware of it then quite quickly any relationship can reproduce inequalities. Any working relationship is always going to be based on those two individuals, but it’s being aware that body language, that positioning, that tone of voice, the way you put things, can actually just make women feel, that sounds pathetic, but it can stifle creativity. So it’s about treating people as equals. People don’t want special treatment. In a way it’s about good management practice, because it’s about the best ways of communicating, be that verbal or non-verbal.
Ruth’s views chimed with Jessica’s comments that ‘more things than [men] realise may be subtly determined by gender so that even though visible discrimination is barred, other factors may be invisible and totally ignored’. Her own environment was ‘still incredibly male oriented’ and while her male colleagues may believe ‘that visible [or] audible sex discrimination is unacceptable, [it] does not mean that it is absent. It could mean that it is just all the more insidious’.
Behaviour and treatment
For Kate, this continued male-oriented culture in the workplace led to unfortunate behaviour, so that when asked what advice she would give to male colleagues, she replied:
Behave like grownups I suppose, is the phrase that comes straight to mind! What I find interesting watching men, particularly in the organisation I’m in at the moment, is that around the chief executive they’re not comfortable. They go into two modes around him. They go into hey mate, all down the pub, footbally type stuff, or they become very passive, they sort of sit back … I just wish you’d grow up sometimes and behave like adults in business … watching organisational groups you see it repeated quite a lot. We actually work in an organisation where it is quite ‘critical parent’ type. It’s absolutely fine if you deliver, but if you don’t deliver, then it’s quite a challenging organisation to be in … They don’t have skills in making the connections, so they make it through having a pint of beer and a talk about football. Or thinking, ‘I’m just going to keep my head down because otherwise I’m just going to get more work and get into more trouble’. Instead of thinking this is a shared agenda and a shared initiative and actually if we work on it together it could be really interesting. That’s what I observe the most in this organisation. We don’t get it in our team but around the patch it can get a bit macho and stuff like that but you just have to gently say ‘no, chaps; don’t do that’.
Interestingly, while Ruth stressed that ‘people don’t want special treatment’, Eliza made a plea for senior men ‘to be more understanding of women’, though in her comments about judging on capability and delivery, she can be seen as agreeing with Ruth in terms of equitable rather than special treatment:
What I would like is for men to recognise the skills and talent of women instead of judging them. It’s like you say you judge them by face value – you should never judge a woman by face value. You judge a woman like you judge a man; you judge them on their capability, and their ability to deliver … I would love a new wave or brave wave so that men would start seeing women not as … a woman in a skirt, or a pretty woman or a young woman or a mother who’s about to have a baby or a mum. Just say, look that person is good at their job; I would like to see that change.
Kate amplified this by lamenting the lack of recognition by some men of the sometimes tense relationship between women’s careers and their family and caring responsibilities and the need for flexible approaches:
What I am surprised about still is how there is … a lack of acceptance that actually women can have children, they can have families, but they can still function at a senior level. Although overtly it’s not there it sort of sits slightly beneath the surface in some male managers. I think that’s unreasonable, and in this day and age we ought to be capable of shaping flexible working relationships that are not impossible for people to work and have lives as well.
For Lillian, the important point was the need to have a broader approach to working relationships in general and with women in particular, ‘maybe in terms of saying something to senior men then to be able to have a slightly more open set of expectations’. So too did Ruth, who emphasised the fact that there were ‘different ways of doing things’, with women being better than men at some of the tasks and responsibilities of senior management:
I think a lot of women are better at doing the difficult things, as far as people management goes … It’s about different ways of working, communicating in different ways and, perhaps, working in a more collegiate way than perhaps has been done here.
This related to ongoing concerns that surfaced throughout much of the interviewing that too often women – even senior women – had difficulty getting themselves taken seriously by men, as Andrea described:
I came across a really fantastic book called ‘why girls don’t get the corner office’1 and I wish I’d read it 20 years ago (laughs). Whether it would have been true then I don’t know, but it really summed up a huge range of things that … if I’d known then … would have made a difference. And some of those are about how you look … how you present … it’s difficult to know how to get certain men in certain groups to take you seriously … I don’t know how to make that happen, but it must be to do with the part of behaviour which is non-verbal probably and some of the verbal – the ums and errs that we tend to do.
Team working, ego, changing approaches
A willingness and an ability to work as a team was a recurring response to the question about providing advice to men, the implication being that male members of the senior staff were too competitive and egoistical to be truly effective team members, needing to have ‘slightly less interest’, as Olivia commented:
[Adopt a] collaborative approach and [be] more inclusive are the two things that I would say. Most of the men that I know would be more competitive in relation to getting things done and to be seen to be doing something, rather than collaborative.
For some, such as Carrie, this was all part of some men – ‘not all of them, of course’ – dropping ‘some of that ego’ and focusing on other people and working relationships:
One should not allow success, however they feel it is, to make them feel so self-important that they forget about the needs of people who they employ or they are responsible for or who they evaluate. Because … it’s really those people that get the work done and make the place run … people are very short sighted if they think that they are the most important person. I would strongly urge that they make … good relationships with everyone and not think just because they’re so successful, so important, that people will do things the way they want it. You’ve got to nurture your staff; you’ve got to nurture your relationships with people and then they’ll want to work.
For Maggie, this all related to being more open and being prepared to admit weaknesses, failings and mistakes, as already discussed:
Don’t be scared of saying that you’ve got it wrong … be prepared to show humility … get the best out of your people, recognise that everybody is different. I guess part of it is, don’t be afraid to show that you’re human; that’s probably a better way of saying it rather than about getting it wrong. Be human – yes, that would probably underpin it … I’m not saying people have to come in and tell everyone about their life; it’s just about that willingness to share.
But many recognised that this was not necessarily going to be easy for some men, as Lillian commented:
I worked with a lot of senior men who I think have been very trapped by the way that they’ve grown up in organisations and by the assumptions that are made of them … I guess the advice I’d give is that if you can create an environment where men and women figure at all levels, you’ve potentially got quite a powerful resource if you’ll let it, if you’ll see what it gives you. It’s not unmanageable and you can make quite small changes in your own assumptions; take a chance on women if you like, every now and again, because half the time you won’t be taking a chance on her you’ll be taking a chance on your model.
In addition, Ruth pointed out that some fundamental issues for senior managers were just as applicable to men as to women – both with regard to ethnic background and diversity (see, for example, Konrad et al., 2006) as Eliza commented, and also to sexuality (as studied in Hearn and Parkin, 1995; Parker, 2002; Skidmore, 2004):
I think there is an issue around black minority ethnic women. I was quite heavily involved in equality and diversity work in the last place I was … it was something I very much believed in. The whole issue around equality and diversity is that it’s not single stranded anymore: it’s multi-dimensional. We perhaps need to be aware of that. I think probably as a white middle-class woman my class has probably overridden other inequalities. The issue of race and of disability and of sexuality compounded with being a female probably would make my situation very different.
Using talent and networking
The need and the opportunity to recognise talent and to use it – regardless of gender, disability, sexuality or any other aspect – was seen as being of paramount importance, for, as Nuala commented, ‘we still do not have a society that builds on the talents of all the people in it’. As far as Diane was concerned, this placed a responsibility on senior managers to:
Be prepared to go out and find talent in your organisation and support it … and if you can use your influence to help the career of others, do so. I wouldn’t be where I am today if it were not for men who have literally found talent and supported it and been there to keep it going. So don’t be blinkered that only people in the next level down to you are the ones that you need to talk to. Get out and about in the organisation and you will find some very talented people at all levels doing all kinds of jobs, because your organisation will be better if you marshal all the talent and not just a few.
Jessica felt just as passionately, stressing the point made earlier about the value of embracing different ways of doing things, not least when it came to employing people on a part-time basis:
You’ve got a lot of valuable talent out there that you may not be using to the best advantage because you’re going to have a lot of part-time women who you think can’t add at the highest level. I’ve actually found some of my part-timers do a whole week in their three days and are really valuable … You have got a lot of talent out there that you could choose to use in a different way, like use some of your part-timers in your strategy sessions … because they will be enthusiastic about how they can bring something to the party. Because generally speaking part-timers are very loyal to the company because they want that company, they need that job and therefore they want it to be successful.
As noted and discussed in other parts of this study, formal and informal networks of support will continue to be important to enable all this talent to realise and achieve its full potential, as Gill stressed on several occasions during her interview, for example in the following comment:
I think … recognising how much other people can provide ladders or scaffolding for you to climb up. And making relationships, networking I suppose.
I think one of the things is about organisations valuing and supporting networks and visibly doing that. What I’ve found recently is that many of the networks that we were developing informally were invaluable but when the organisation actually, at a senior level, put its money where its mouth was in terms of giving [certain networks] funding to achieve their goals it sends a really powerful message … So if I was to say anything it’s to recognise and support the value and benefit of networks. And be prepared to learn from people’s experiences and see those learnings as something really valuable, not as something challenging. Be receptive to that. If you’re going to ask people or networks for their thoughts then actually be receptive to it and consider it and where appropriate actually use it. Use people’s experiences to benefit the organisation.
Demography
Altering the gender balance towards more women senior and top managers will bring its own challenges. Fiona pointed out that as more (older) women become chief executives, then more (younger) men will need to work out how to interact with female bosses:
I think there is going to be an issue emerging around women and age … I suppose the other thing … about being a woman in a powerful position is about having the courage if you’re younger and more junior and a man, to say you don’t understand … it’s about the courage to say to a woman boss, older, ‘hang on’ not ‘you need to translate this for me’ which is what men would’ve said when I was more junior, ‘come on, learn how to say it properly’ but ‘actually I don’t quite understand, what are you saying, how can we find the path between what I’m saying and what you’re saying and maybe both of us need to put that in different language’.
Diane made a number of similar points, stressing the need to nurture all available talent in a well-balanced mix, and especially to increase the number of senior women, still woefully small, at least in the UK (Fazackerley, 2006):
We need more men. An institution like this is increasingly female … Women [CEOs in this sector] are still thin on the ground but there are a lot of women now coming up as … managers … and so on. So we need to find out where the men are going … But I do think to capitalise on the fact that women and men do approach things differently and to make sure that teams are well balanced so that you have the right mix of capabilities and competencies.
Fiona echoed many of these issues and challenges, not least in relation to institutional demography and imbalances. In particular, she emphasised the need to respect everyone and the ‘middle-aged white male’ just as much as anyone else:
We always need to be aware because although we’re 50/50 women/men … those numbers are not distributed evenly across programmes, so we’ve got big work to do … In terms of staff we need to keep an eye on the reality behind the statistics. So there’s a velocity of women moving through, the support that they have as they move into new, higher positions … what our aim is for everybody in our community, we describe it as celebrating difference, really respecting difference … I’m about the respect for diversity, the respect for difference. Making sure that within that group not everybody starts equal and so you just have to kind of equalise that. But respect is for everyone and our diversity programme is as much about the middle-aged white male as it is the young black female. It’s really trying to get to the heart of that.
The future
In their different ways, all the women were optimistic about the future, noting that things had already changed and were continuing to change for the better. First Andrea:
It feels as though these things are changing with the generations, because current people are sharing their domestic environment much more actively and the older generations are the ones that kind of look askance at female behaviour that isn’t. So I think there’s a certain amount which is kind of rolling out through the generation change.
I think it is a shift over time. You’re going to come across the occasional person who still mirrors that very autocratic or transactional ‘this is a business’ type thing, but I would say that the majority of men that I’ve worked with have moved more into being transformational, where they want their people to grow and develop and try to help them to do that.
Conclusion
All the participants in the study had thought carefully about the key messages for men. While much has changed during the course of their careers and they are now in senior positions – able to influence and change approaches and environments – there are still a number of issues that need to be addressed in terms of men’s attitudes towards women and, perhaps in some specific circumstances, women’s attitudes towards men. Clearly, there are a number of gender differences that have not been fully accommodated in the workplace, though the women’s responses both to this question and in general give cause for optimism.
References
Fazackerley, A., Will the face at the top ever really change? Times Higher Education Supplement. 2006. [28 July.].
Hearn, J., Parkin, W. ‘Sex’ at ‘Work’: The Power and Paradox of Organization Sexuality. New York: St. Martin’s Press; 1995.
Konrad A.P., et al, eds. Handbook of Workplace Diversity. London: Sage, 2006.
Parker, M. Queering management and organisation. Gender, Work and Organization. 2002; 9(2):146–166.
Skidmore, P. A legal perspective on sexuality and organization: a lesbian and gay case study. Gender, Work and Organization. 2004; 11(3):229–253.
1Frankel, L.P. (2004) Nice Girls Don’t Get The Corner Office: 101 Unconscious Mistakes Women Make That Sabotage Their Careers. New York: Warner.