Seeing Ourselves as Leaders
A conversation with Muriel Maignan Wilkins and Amy Jen Su
Making the transition from being one of many on a team to being a leader is a process—not just of convincing other people to see us as leaders, but also of convincing ourselves that we can and should lead. And that can be especially difficult for women.
In this conversation, Women at Work cohosts Amy Gallo and Nicole Torres explore the process of becoming a leader, including the soul-searching that women often have to do to get there. They talk to experts on leadership Muriel Maignan Wilkins and Amy Jen Su, founders of the executive coaching firm Paravis Partners and coauthors of the book Own the Room: Discover Your Signature Voice to Master Your Leadership Presence.
AMY GALLO: Do you remember the first time that you were seen as a leader?
MURIEL MAIGNAN WILKINS: It was my first supervisory job. Looking back now, I was naive, very young, and thrust into this role supervising individuals who were far more experienced than I was. And while I knew that I was there as a supervisor and as a manager, I certainly didn’t see myself as a leader—but everybody else did. It took a couple of big fails for me to step into the leadership role and recognize that it was much more than just making sure that people were doing what they were supposed to be doing. In hindsight, I probably remember it a little bit more painfully than I’d like to.
AMY G.: How about you, Amy Su?
AMY S.: There was a day when I really lost it on somebody who worked with me, and later when I debriefed with that person, I realized how much I was able to cause a bad day for somebody else. There was just this moment of, Wow, perhaps I’m a leader now, and my temperament, mood, and state of being are actually going to impact the way others feel.
AMY G.: It sounds like for both of you it was not very positive. It’s a bit like an awkward growth spurt to go from someone who’s an individual contributor to someone who’s now seen as a leader. Is that how you think of it in your writing and your work with coaching clients?
MURIEL: I never quite thought of it as awkward, but certainly an uncomfortable phase, which, as we all know, is where most of the growth happens. It’s hard because, on the one hand, you want to go back to what you are comfortable with and what has made you successful up until now. On the other, you know that you can step into the role that you’re currently in with the potential that you have. So it’s certainly uncomfortable, and it can be awkward. At the same time, it’s one of the inflection points that is great for growth for anyone.
NICOLE TORRES: I can think of two challenges that make this such an uncomfortable phase. The first is whether you see yourself as a leader. The other is if you see yourself as a leader, but other people do not. Maybe you’ve stepped into a managerial role or maybe you’re leading a project, and you see yourself as being the one making decisions, but you don’t feel like other people perceive you that way. Do you see those two challenges play out?
AMY S.: Muriel and I have definitely seen both sides of that equation. There’s your own shift internally around realizing that you are a leader, and that you are bringing a different business judgment and a different set of decision-making skills to the table. At the same time, as you mentioned, it’s also interesting to see how perception follows along with that. In our coaching work, we’ve seen that the internal shift often happens sooner and with a greater pronouncement than how others view you.
AMY G.: Let’s take each of those in turn, because while the internal one may happen more quickly for many people, especially women, it is hard to make that leap. When you coach clients, what are the major obstacles, and how do you help them?
MURIEL: In anything, the internal piece is the harder part. But it’s also the one that is most sustainable in terms of achieving the transformation, change, or shift that you want to make, whether it’s in your career or even in your personal life.
With clients, one of the big things they need to embrace is that being a leader or acting as a leader doesn’t necessarily require the hierarchical position. A lot of them wait till they get the promotion—until they’re the vice president or managing a team—assuming that that’s when they need to be “leaderly.” In reality, you should be preparing for this from day one.
With women, part of the challenge is that they are not necessarily conditioned for leadership positions, so they don’t get a ton of practice before they enter the workplace. If you look at the research even around young girls raising their hands in a classroom, you start seeing that dissonance very early on.
So a lot of what we work with clients on is not just the mindset in terms of seeing themselves as a leader—what does that mean, how do they want to lead, how do they want to be known—but also starting to understand that there are some specific skills that help in terms of establishing and asserting your leadership. These skills are primarily your communication skills. That includes your ability to speak up, listen, and ask good questions; how you lead your work and drive your work; and even your physical presence with how you hold yourself in a room and a conversation, and whether you do it in a way that makes you feel like you’re a leader and makes others feel like they’re in the presence of a leader as well.
AMY G.: Many women receive messages that in order to be a leader, you need to use typically masculine traits. One of the most popular articles we’ve ever published on hbr.org is about why so many incompetent men become leaders, and much of that article is about how we value confidence and assertiveness. For some women—myself included—the hesitancy to step into the role in the way you’re talking about is like, Do I have to do that? Do I have to be assertive, aggressive, and authoritative to be a leader? How do women get over that hurdle?
MURIEL: That is a big, life-affirming question, because the struggle and the tension is between what the world expects you to be and who you are. Even this concept of leadership looks one way, which is, quite frankly, the white masculine way.
From my standpoint, in working with women, the goal is to get them to understand that it is a myth—that the real work starts from within, with understanding who you are and what you stand for. What are your principles? What is your way of being in the world, and which behaviors make you who you are?
Then it’s getting them away from what their default behaviors and skills might be—again, how they’ve habitually created who they are right now and how they act—and get them to think about what they want. The minute that a client says with real conviction that they do want to lead, that’s actually the biggest breakthrough. Because they have to own it. Once we understand that, then we can work backward to say, “All right, so how do you do this in a way that supports who you are, while at the same time being relevant and resonating with those who you need to lead?”
NICOLE: Are there specific examples of things that you tell clients who come to you and say, “I want to lead”? What do you tell them to do to establish themselves as leaders if they don’t have the title but want to start embodying a leader?
AMY S.: The word “embodying” is really important. We could tell somebody all we want that I’m a leader, I’m a leader, let me tell you, I’m a leader—but it’s really about the felt experience of the other person.
For example, you might be somebody who historically has asked a lot of questions or asked for advice from others. Maybe in the past I would say to you, “How do you think I should price this proposal?” Instead, in a leader stance, I might come to you now with what I call “the comment and the question,” where I’m sharing with you my business judgment first and then asking a question. I might say, “I’m thinking we should price this proposal this way. I think it inherently keeps the value of our firm and at the same time mitigates risks on renewals. But I really value your perspective. Do you think I’m missing anything here?” There’s a big difference when our stance is, “Wow, I don’t have the answers, so I’m going to go ask others and follow” versus “I’m a leader, I’m going to share with you my judgment, but then be open to other perspectives.”
MURIEL: Then, if I can add to that, if a client is working in a specific organization that has its own model of what it looks like to be an effective leader, at a very practical level I ask them, “Do you know what it means to be an effective leader in this organization?” If the answer is no, then they have to go on a little field trip to HR and ask, “What does the leadership model look like here? Is there one?” It’s usually made up of 8 to 12 skills, and we start working on those skills.
AMY G.: We probably have listeners who are saying, “I’ve nailed the internal, I know I want to be a leader, I’ve looked at the competencies, I’ve started exhibiting the behavior—but people around me still don’t see me as a leader.” Do you have any advice for women in that situation, where they feel like they’re pushing to be a leader, but they’re not getting the response they want?
AMY S.: The word you use, “pushing,” really says a lot. When we are coming from a place of trying to prove ourselves, people can smell that, and there’s a tremendous amount of insecurity that sits underneath it. So, there’s a distinction for me between “I really own my expertise and understand the business knowledge, skills, and experience that I bring to the table” and “I need to prove that I’m an expert, and I hope they see me as an expert.” Somehow, folks can tell the difference. We need to push ourselves to ask, “Is the pressure to prove I’m an expert actually getting in the way?”
MURIEL: It’s important to also bring people along. Many times, individuals are not pushing back on you trying to grow and spread your leadership wings, if you will. The issue is that they’re not used to it. They’re used to operating with you and experiencing you in the way that you have been. It’s helpful to have a couple of advocates, champions, and sponsors who are excited for you to spread your wings, and who you rely on in terms of getting advice, counsel, and mentoring as you’re going through this passage. That way they are coming along with you.
For women in particular, depending on where they are in their career, this is especially important. I’ve seen many women get caught up in a sort of father/daughter relationship when their manager or their mentor is a male. Is that really the dynamic that you want to have, whether it’s conscious or unconscious? Bringing people along—being very explicit that you want to grow as a leader, that this is your intent as you go into that next position, and asking for their support—can be healthy in moving through that transition.
AMY G.: You also have to be specific, because if you say to your manager, mentor, or sponsor, “I want to be seen as a leader,” that could mean a zillion different things.
MURIEL: Yes.
AMY S.: Absolutely.
AMY G.: So you need to say, “I want to be able to make the decision on X. I want to be someone who people seek out for expertise on Y.” You need to be more specific and, as you say, Muriel, make a request of, “Here’s how you can help me do that.”
MURIEL: Right. Ask in a specific way. Seek counsel and say, “Manager, I really want to work on my ability to be seen as a leader. Six months from now, what would be some of the hallmarks that you’d expect from me if that’s my goal?”
AMY G.: I once noticed that someone who many people thought of as a leader often said at the end of the meeting, “Let me know if you want me to weigh in on that.” And I was like, “Oh, I should use that.” That’s a good line because it demonstrates I have expertise, and I’m willing to help if you want my opinion. It was such a nice way to establish leadership without having to say, “I’m in charge.”
AMY S.: You’re mentioning something here that does distinguish a leader. You begin to see at more senior levels that people are just more comfortable batting ideas around with each other in a peer-to-peer way. Often you can see that somebody is still trying to make that turn, because they’re still walking in with the overpackaged document or overpackaged presentation, and they feel like they can only speak when it’s about their area. Part of being seen as a leader is the willingness to bring your judgment, bring your acumen, and talk about things in a much more informal way.
AMY G.: I was asked a question recently by a Black woman who said that she worked in an organization where she just felt like she was never going to succeed because of her race and her gender. She said, “How do I know when it’s just not going to happen, where I’m not going to be seen as a leader because of these biases, versus because I haven’t done enough yet?” Do you have advice for someone in that situation?
MURIEL: I would look at the signs that she’s getting. Number one, when she looks ahead of her in terms of the different ranks, what does that look like? Are there any other women or people of color or—bingo, bonus—women of color that are more senior? Is there a track record there?
Secondly, is she getting support even in the role that she’s in? Is she being offered, even if she has to ask, opportunities to get not only visibility but also more experience and exposure? Because those are the things that will actually get you ahead. It’s the visibility, the social capital, and the knowledge capital, which only come through experience. If she’s getting knocked down every time she asks, well, then that’s another sign. The other question is, can she find a sponsor, even if it’s an informal sponsor within the organization?
Let’s assume her performance is really top-notch. What I would say is, if you’re able to do everything that you can in these areas that I spoke of, and over time it doesn’t seem like it’s leading to anything, then you do need to have a frank conversation with yourself around whether this is the place that’s going to set you up for success in terms of the goals that you want. You also have to ask yourself what your time limit is. Everybody’s timing is different. I do think that some people opt out too early, but you need to set a time range. And sometimes you don’t really know till you go elsewhere.
NICOLE: I know we all have those moments of doubt. But if you start seeing yourself as a leader, and you sense that other people doubt you—maybe they think that you have progressed too fast or they still see you as someone who needs training wheels—how do you preserve your own sense of confidence so that you know you can lead and some people are just wrong about you?
MURIEL: One of the things that is helpful, particularly when you take on a management role for the first time and you start leading a team, is to—very early on—get on the table what people’s hopes and aspirations are in terms of you being the leader. But also understand what their concerns might be. That ability to listen to the concerns gives you an added advantage in terms of being able to not get defensive and address them. And hearing what the expectations are, so you can start being in tune with those expectations and get some quick wins, starts building your credibility. My biggest warning is to not get defensive. If you get defensive, it’s just going to alienate everyone, and you don’t want to be in that position.
AMY G.: What if you’re not sure if you want to lead? How do you decide whether this is something you want to do?
MURIEL: This is where you really need to think through what the next couple of years look like for you. I don’t think it’s a lifetime decision. Some people look at it as, “What do I want to do with my life?” I suggest looking at things in a three-to-five-year horizon. Five years seems like a very long time to me. Focus on the next couple of years rather than the rest of your life: What are the different scenarios? Which ones are more aligned with what you want?
What you don’t want to have happen is to follow a particular scenario out of fear. That’s a very different way of opting out. I remember early on in my career, I recognized that I was getting very close to being able to gun for partner at a consulting firm. While I believed that I could do it, the question was, did I want to? Those are two very different things. So, the first question is, do you think you can do it? The second is, do you want to? I recognized after a lot of my own soul-searching, talking to others, and looking at those who are ahead of me—even those that I greatly admired—that it was not what I wanted. And the reason I didn’t want it is that it wasn’t the way that I wanted to make an impact.
So having the ability to sit back and think about those two questions—do I believe I can do it and do I want it—is critical.
Adapted from “Seeing Ourselves as Leaders,” Women at Work podcast season 4, episode 10, December 16, 2019.