8

STEP 5: THE INTERROGATION

Three things cannot be long hidden: the sun, the moon, and the truth.

—Buddha

I HAD NO IDEA WHAT was Sunhee was thinking.

She knows that I can see and hear when someone is holding something back, but that didn’t stop her from tap-dancing around answering my out-of-nowhere question. I’m not sure how we got on the topic, but I asked my new twenty-four-year-old executive assistant, “Have you ever gotten into a physical fight with anyone?”

The game was on.

Sunhee responded with a right shoulder shrug, a contorted facial expression of fear and sadness, and a couple umms, along with a bit lower lip. Next came something like, “Maybe, but I’m not sure if I remember what happened when I was younger.”

Hello, she’s twenty-four!

“Well, if you could remember, what would your answer be?”

“Well, umm, the fight I can tell you about happened at an ice-skating rink, where this group of girls called my friends and me a derogatory slang word for Asians. At first we verbally threatened and insulted one another, but in less than an hour, fists were flying, hair was being yanked, and fingernails were breaking.”

I listened intently, but I was bursting inside to ask the most important question. When Sunhee was done sharing her ice-skating showdown, I said, “Sunhee, I’m sorry to hear that people are full of such hate. Now, tell me about the story that you can’t tell me about.’”

She was mortified; she thought she slid that by me. What came next was deep, painful, and private.

We now know that using nonverbal signs of emotions—fear, anger, sadness, surprise—to spot a lie is less than 100 percent reliable. Even if we were fast enough to spot those fleeting microexpressions, the reality is that people feel fear, anger, sadness, or surprise for a lot of different reasons—particularly if they start to think that you don’t trust them.

That’s why I place so much emphasis on the verbal aspects of the BS Barometer. I want you to ask questions—lots of them! While peppering your friends or colleagues with questions may seem a bit awkward at first, you will grow to understand how to draw someone out, how to get all the information you want—and more—simply by asking the right questions and, often, just by being silent. In this chapter, we’ll learn the final piece of the BS Barometer, the interrogation—how to turn up the heat with questions that will stress out the liars but leave the honest people scratching their heads like, “What’s the big deal?”

START WITH AN OPEN MIND

You’ve probably spent some time watching old cop shows or scary movies about torture at the hands of interrogators. They nearly all start with someone saying, “When are you going to tell us what we want? When are you going to admit you did it?” Researchers now know this is an absolutely counterproductive way to do an interrogation. First of all, the suspect is likely to shut down and, like a petulant child, refuse to participate: “You don’t believe me anyway, so why should I talk to you?” And, if they’re not that strong willed, you might get the poor soul who is so suggestible that she fesses up to a crime she didn’t commit! (That happens more often than you might think.)

That’s why researchers now know that an “information-gathering” style is the most effective interrogation technique. Open-ended questions (such as, “What did you do this morning before breakfast?” or “Did you run into anyone you knew at the store today?”) will allow you to gather as much data and “facts” (or lies) as you can at once. A recent review in Psychological Science in the Public Interest tells us why this information-gathering style works best:

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1. When you get more information, you get more opportunities to drill down into someone’s story and spot the weak spots and inconsistencies.
2. When you get people talking for a while, you get to see more nonverbal cues—even though they cannot be your entire “proof” of wrongdoing.
3. The more words people say, the more you can use Statement Analysis to see the changes in tense, pronoun usage, distancing language, and all the other tricks you learned in the wiretap chapter.
4. Information-gathering interviews are more conversational, so they don’t feel as threatening and are less likely to cause hot spots related to anxiety.
5. If you launch into an interrogation convinced you are correct—as in the “Why don’t you just admit you did it!” style—you gather less evidence and get trapped in your one-track mind. Information gathering leaves you open to other explanations you may not have even considered yet.¹

Now that you have your mind-set in order, let’s see how you can set the stage for the most honest conversation possible.

PRIME PEOPLE FOR THE TRUTH

Way before you get down to that big Yes-or-No question, you can improve your chance of getting an honest answer by “priming” your target to tell the truth. Scientists are continually finding support for this methodology. Turns out when a person is asked to “swear to tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth,” it works. One study found that kids eight to sixteen years old who had promised to tell the truth before being asked about a transgression were eight times more likely to be honest than those who had not promised.² U.K. sex offenders who volunteered to be hooked up to lie detectors were five times more likely to confess to new crimes than were offenders who were not hooked up but were later found to have abused children.³ Even people taking a pre-employment test only needed to be politely asked to be truthful, and they gave significantly more honest answers.⁴

I always recommend to my students that they make a big deal about being great at spotting lies. I recommend they walk into their next employee meeting and say, “I just took a class with Janine Driver, a deception detection expert—she says I’m a natural! I don’t even know what that means, but evidently, I unconsciously pick up on deceptive tells.” I tell the cops to do it, too. But you could do this with anyone—your teenager, your real estate agent, your broker, a car salesperson. The simple sentence, “I know you’re an honest person,” can have miraculous effects.

Okay, now you’re ready to begin.

THE BASIC INTERROGATION TECHNIQUE

The real secret of detecting deception is to know that you have to ask lots of questions and to continue doing so until you get what you need. Start with an easy one. Ask an innocent question that you already know the answer to, or one that you know won’t arouse any suspicion:

What are you doing this weekend?

How was the movie last night?

And move slowly up to the more heavy-duty ones:

Is this a picture of your wife?

Why is there a tan line on your ring finger—did you recently get divorced?

Ask Open-Ended Questions

An interrogation is not a true/false test—it’s more like an essay. Yes-or-No questions are typically dead ends. You only ask those in very specific moments. (We’ll get to which later.)

For now, you want to get the basics down: Who, What, When, Where, Why, How. Then, keep going just for sheer quantity:

1. What is it about …?
2. You said … Tell me more.
3. What do you mean?
4. How did he show you …?
5. How do you explain …?
6. How long have you …?
7. Tell me what happened....
8. When was the last time …?
9. What were you doing …?
10. What you did is …
11. Why would you …?
12. Why did you …?
13. Repeat what you just said.
14. Where did this happen …?
15. Who said …?
16. Who did …?
17. Explain....

Did I mention it’s all about quantity?

Really, if nothing else, I’d like you to come away from this chapter with the sense that the game Twenty Questions is for rookies—do I hear thirty? Forty? The more questions you ask, the more information you gather, the wiser you become.

And as you ask, keep your eyes open.

Maybe I’m Wrong Here

This is where the baseline comes in—you’re looking for those deviations that come when people seem slightly uncomfortable. Any time anyone deviates from that nonverbal baseline, say to them, “Maybe I’m wrong here, but it seems like there’s more to the story.”

“Maybe I’m wrong here, but when you said your ex-girlfriend wasn’t at the bar last night, you seemed happy.”

“Maybe I’m wrong here, but it seems like you’re pretty happy with losing your job.”

“Maybe I’m wrong here, but you seem a little anxious about your meeting later.”

And then you WAIT.

WAIT = Why Am I Talking?

If you take nothing else from this chapter, I want you to learn this: silence is interrogation gold. People don’t like awkward silences, and they will do almost anything to fill them up (see a clip from my appearance in a Discovery Channel documentary that demonstrates the power of silence with getting a confession at www.youcantlietome.com). Your job, after the “Maybe I’m wrong here …” pattern of the previous technique, is to follow it with the WAIT protocol:

1. “Is there any reason why?”

Is there any reason why you’re telling me this but you’re showing me that? Is there any reason why you told me you’re happy to be here, but you’re showing me fear or contempt or disgust, or you seem a little anxious? (Note: If you recognize a true signal of fear, that’s exactly the moment to dig deeper.)

2. “Really?”

Say it like you’re from Boston—in other words, like you’re basically saying, “I don’t think so.”

A truthful person has no problem if you ask them a question:

“So, where were you last night?”

“I was out with Janine, and Mike, and Jeff.”

“Really?”

“Yeah [shrugging]. Really.”

But a liar needs to be believed. So as soon as you say, “Really?,” a liar is going to freak out: “Yeah, what do you think I am, a liar? I knew this was going to happen. I knew you weren’t going to trust me. Why do you always do this? You’re so insecure.”

3. WAIT—Why Am I Talking?

Silence. Dead silence. Say nothing.

Salespeople are so good at this—so are lawyers and journalists. Whoever speaks next loses. A truthful person believes you will believe them, but a liar will immediately think the worst.

If it looks like they’re getting anxious, don’t be in any rush. Let them sit there and stew. Take it from a former investigator: it is torture to let someone who’s lying sit in their own silence for a while—because they don’t know what’s going on. They’re getting anxious and their heart rate is going, their blood flow is increasing—they’re just freaking out.

The Question	The Truth	The Lie
“How do you think this happened?”	“I don’t know.”	[He/she may tell you exactly how the event occurred, as a “guess.”]
“Whom do you suspect?”	“I don’t know … maybe Joey?”	Silence, shrugs—or “Definitely Joey.”
“Do you think this was hard to do?”	“I don’t know.”	“Nah, I’ll bet it was a piece of cake.”
“What should happen to the person who did this?”	“They should be punished!”	“They’re probably suffering a lot with the guilt of it....”
“Would there be any reason someone would say you were there?”	“Nope!”	[He will make excuses, try to explain why he may have been seen there, or give an alternate location far away.]
“What kind of a person would do such a thing?”	“A really bad/despicable/no-good person.”	[May describe herself or say the person who did it “isn’t bad, just needs help.”]
“How do you think the person who did this would feel?”	“I don’t know.”	[May describe her own feelings.]

The Rule of Three

When it comes to answering a question, there’s one right way to do it—answer the question. Liars sometimes spend a lot of time talking around the question, stalling. But you can measure a person’s sincerity by how many words stand between the question and his denial. More than three, and he’s a big fat liar.

“Did you steal the money out of my wallet?”

“What? Seriously, Mom. Are you seriously asking me if I took money from you? How could you think I would do that? I could never do that. No, I didn’t.”

Busted. How would an honest person answer?

“Did you steal the money out of my wallet?”

“No, I didn’t.”

If people don’t get to “No” within three statements, there’s an 85 percent chance they’re lying. You have to give them these three chances because they may take exception to something else in your question—maybe they feel you’re attacking their identity, integrity, belief, or religion. Their reaction might have more to do with feeling attacked than denying the charge itself. But we draw the line at three!

Remember: No one likes to lie. But even more than that, they don’t want to have to deal with the consequences of lying. Especially backsliders—they want to hide behind anything in order not to have to face the lie.

ADVANCED TECHNIQUES

The WAIT technique is usually enough to bust most of the liars in your life—the people with a conscience. But what do you do about those others, the serial offenders, the ones you just can’t pin down? Let’s get out the big guns.

Strategic Use of Evidence Approach

When being questioned, the truthful person has nothing to hide—it doesn’t matter what the other person knows (or thinks they know), he wants to tell everything he knows to be true. In contrast, the liar wants desperately to find out what the other person knows so he can adjust his story accordingly. One interrogation technique—the strategic use of evidence (SUE) technique—capitalizes on this desperate need by withholding the one thing the liar wants most: information. Cops use this technique very effectively when they have physical evidence, but a manager who needs a straight answer on a deadline, a mom who finds pot or cigarettes in her son’s desk, or a wife who finds lipstick on her husband’s collar could use it the same way.

In one Swedish study, policemen who were trained in SUE techniques increased their accuracy rates by a staggering 30 percent. Cops who didn’t receive the training identified a thief correctly 56 percent of the time; cops who did receive the SUE training spotted the guilty party 85.4 percent of the time.⁵

A longtime favorite technique of TV detective Lieutenant Columbo, SUE works on the old “give them enough rope to hang themselves” principle—by letting the person talk at length before revealing what you know, you get a whole bunch of bonus information for further analysis. But it also helps you to approach the whole situation with an open mind, so you can absorb extra information you might not be expecting if their guilt is a foregone conclusion. And, perhaps most important, it keeps the outcome of the conversation under your control. If your husband spent the afternoon at the retirement party for sweet Betty, the seventy-year-old receptionist, and she gave him a big good-bye hug and kiss—that lipstick on the collar didn’t cause a marital blowup, lost trust, and major hard feelings.⁶

Ask a “How” Question

Earlier we talked about the fact that liars won’t discuss emotions when recounting a story. They’re so focused on the “facts” of the situation, they don’t stop to think about how people are feeling. This blind spot makes how a great area to probe—often they haven’t anticipated these questions and so aren’t prepared for them.

How questions are great to catch the crazies. We saw this with two of the most notorious liars. Scott Peterson was asked, “How was Laci when you last saw her?” His response? “She was in the living room wrapping presents.” Meanwhile, what was really happening: he was in the living room wrapping up her dead body with duct tape, before he threw her in the water. He didn’t answer the question with a how—he answered with a what. (A fake what, to boot!)

Joran van der Sloot, alleged killer of American teen Natalee Holloway, was asked, “How was Natalee when you last saw her?” His answer: she was walking along the beach. Sorry, buddy—that’s not a how.

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Who Will You Vouch For?

If you ask a person who might be a suspect, “Who could’ve done this? Who could have taken the money?,” a truthful person will say, “Well, any of us could’ve taken it.”

A liar will name other people, but won’t name himself: “Well, I saw Kendra, Lisa, and Julie over there—they were over by the pocketbook.”

One of my students, James, a “loss prevention expert”—that is, a security guard—told me of a related tactic they use in retail theft. If an item is missing from a store, and they have a bunch of suspects but no one is fessing up, James will ask each one, “Who would you vouch for?”

An honest person will say, “Well, I can vouch for myself … and maybe this one other guy, but other than that, I don’t know.” Interestingly, James says the guilty person will not mention themselves. Instead, they’ll say, “I can vouch for this one person,” but then give a slew of other names of people who could be guilty, in an attempt to muddy the waters.

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Look Me in the Eyes

The old “mom” technique of telling the liar to “look me in the eyes” is actually a great way to increase cognitive load.⁸ When someone is creating or recalling details about a story, they often shift their gaze to look at an inanimate object in order to focus more intently before turning back to make eye contact again. But if you insist that the person maintain eye contact, he or she is going to have to work doubly hard to draw up those details with the distraction of your gorgeous face. That’s when the liar’s extra work will become readily apparent.

Tell the Story Backward

This baby is one of my mentor J.J. Newberry’s favorite moves to use to get a liar to slip up; I learned it from him and it works sooo well (thanks J.J.!). To quickly increase a liar’s cognitive load, have the suspected jerk in your life tell you her story backward.

Liars typically can’t do it. They might be using every last neuron to keep their story straight—what they did first, second, last—so if you said, tell me the whole story in reverse order, something’s going to crack. One study had people watch videos of others telling the truth and lying in both chronological and reverse order—and when liars were asked to reverse the order of their stories, the deception detection average shot up by nearly 20 percent.⁹ People memorize the story from the beginning to the end, not the end to the beginning, so that’s where people will stumble.

Now, this technique can be tricky—not everyone can use this tactic. A woman can’t ask her new boyfriend to recount his whereabouts the night before in reverse order. But if a husband has been busted cheating before, and his forgiving-yet-suspicious wife has a hunch he’s doing it again, she definitely could ask. And a person in law enforcement, or the parent of a teen who’s very worried about drug use, could certainly bring this J.J. Newberry masterpiece to the confrontation party!

Ask the Same Question Three Ways

Trying to get at the same information in several ways can increase a subject’s cognitive load and make the person hesitate while answering.

• How old are you?
• What year were you born?
• When did you graduate from high school?
• Whose house were you at?
• Were the parents home the whole time?
• What time did the mom get home?

Ask a Bizarre Question

People who are lying want to appear relaxed and compliant—they don’t like to refuse to answer a question because they think it will make them seem deceptive. In contrast, people who are telling the truth can get exasperated by bizarre questions.¹⁰ For example, if you ask, “What type of salad dressings did they have at the restaurant?,” a liar might try to recreate a list, wanting to seem “helpful.” But the truthful person would look at you like you’re crazy. “Huh? Why do you want to know that? I have no idea.”

Throw Them a Lifeline

This only-for-the-pros technique is extremely advanced, but nearly surefire! When liars are drowning, they will occasionally reach out for any help you are willing to give them to get away with their deception. So, go ahead—indulge them. Give them a way out—and turn it into a trap.

As your liar digs his hole, prepare a couple of plausible alternatives. Create explanations that seem possible and almost excusable—but while the first two are more human, the last one shows the liar in a downright cowardly light. (Check out the table for some hypothetical situations.)

As you offer the first explanation, watch his nonverbal language. If he’s buying it, nodding his head, looking at you, then say, “Or …,” and move forward to the cowardly version right away. If your suspect is not buying your first anecdote, then move to your second story—and then finish him off with the cowardly version.

At the end of each one of these scenarios, once you have your “confession,” you alone can decide if it’s a deal breaker for your relationship. You might have had enough, or you might just decide to grant some mercy—after all, sometimes cowards need love, too.

Listen for the Deep Breath

If you’ve really been putting the screws to someone, pause for a second—and listen for a deep breath. When people lie, they often hold their breath. As the liar watches you to see if you’re buying the story, if you suddenly appear to let down your guard, she may as well.

I learned this trick from the great J.J. Newberry. He taught a course in questioning for Customs and Immigration officers. People who are trying to outwit Customs will often memorize answers to common questions. J.J. taught his agents to ask those common questions in a first interview, but then to listen carefully for that deep breath as the suspect turned away—those are the people they would bring in for the second interview.

If you hear that deep breath, that’s a level-10 red alert that something’s going on. You might use that to say, “Okay, let’s back up—what was happening when I asked you that question?” Or, if you’re in the middle of a heavy-duty line of questioning, and you hear a heavy sigh, you might be about to hear a confession. Stay tuned: important stuff is happening.

The “No-Nos”

Remember the rule of three—if they don’t say, “No, I did not do it,” in the first three responses, that’s a big red flag. I call these phrases the “No-Nos”:

• I knew this would happen.
• Do you want me to confess to something I didn’t do?
• I would be stupid to do that.
• Are you saying you think I did it?
• Honestly, I didn’t do it. I swear I didn’t.
• I already answered that.
• I knew you didn’t trust me.
• I would never do that.

What you’re looking for in an honest person is always a “No,” pure and simple. Sometimes you’ll get a No, but it will be what we at ATF called a “Bad No”: one that’s cluttered, with stuttering or wobbling, overextending it, multiple Nos at key questions. If they keep it simple, it’s likely they are simply being honest.

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THE BIG GUNS: THE CLOSED-ENDED QUESTION

While most of the time, interrogation is all about starting with open-ended questions, occasionally, you just need to get to the truth. Surprisingly, sometimes a great way to get someone to slip you the truth without them realizing you are on to them is simply to ask them a Yes-or-No question. If they begin their response to a closed-ended question with the word, “Well,” there’s a high probability that they are holding something back.

When people use the word Well to answer a Yes-or-No question, they are about to send you on a fishing trip to find the truth. Now, if they use a Well in response to an open-ended question, they could be forming their answer, and most likely it is not a lie. (For instance, if you asked your boyfriend, “How was your day at work?” He may respond with, “Well, it was a bit on the boring side.”) But if they answer a yes/no question with a Well, they are creating a smokescreen to your question—they’re trying to make you think they’ve answered your question, but in fact, they haven’t. So, what to do? Follow this example:

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EXERCISING YOUR BS BAROMETER: THE INTERROGATION

The interrogation exercises build your confidence and develop patience. You need to have both if you’re going to be able to ask powerful questions and have the courage to WAIT for the answers! I’ve also included some exercises for those who might be more interested in finding out what it’s like on the other side of the thin blue line—the police. The police put themselves in harm’s way every day to protect us. If everyone had a chance to walk in their shoes for a day, I think we’d all have a greater appreciation for how many liars they spare us from!

They Won’t Have You to Kick Around Anymore!

Watch the Frost-Nixon interview (available on DVD and http://www.youtube.com/QOK3buuYMLQ). Put yourself in the shoes of Frost and literally mimic his body language to feel directly what he is feeling as he’s analyzing Nixon. Also, prime your brain to look and listen for subtle and not-so-subtle body language shifts and changes in posture. When and why does Frost or Nixon lean in or lean back? What microexpressions are on their faces, in their hand gestures, and so on?

The purpose of this exercise is to sit in the posture and stance and use the same movements as one of the most extremely successful interviewers of all times. Success breeds success.

Retail Therapy Interrogation Training

In all the restaurants and stores you go to this week, ask the server or clerk the following two questions—then say nothing. That’s right—after he answers your second question, you’ll look at him, tilt your head slightly to your left shoulder, and silently spell your entire name in your head. Do this a few times, and you’ll train your brain to pause and be patient—and not rush to fill the silence, cutting off your chance to get at the truth.

• Question 1. Is there any reason why you don’t have (for example, steak on the menu, warm rolls, heated maple syrup, the tip included on the bill for large groups, the milk not in the same aisle as the yogurt, or black tank tops in a petite size, children’s shoes, winter coats, bathing suits, …)?
• Question 2. [tilt head, pause] Really?

Fun Variation: Home Improvement Interrogation

Go to an auto store (or the auto section of a Walmart or Target) or go to Home Depot or Lowe’s and pick up any auto part, liquid, drill, bucket of primer, or other item and ask confused questions about it.

Write down the following questions in a small notebook and begin to ask the store clerk one question at a time. Take a couple notes for each answer. Your objective is to keep them talking for a minimum of ten minutes.

• Who makes this?
• Who is the last person that bought this item?
• What is this for?
• What does it do?
• Why would someone buy this?
• How do you use this?
• Have the people who make this product ever been sued? Are you sure? How do you know?
• Do you guarantee the success of this product?
• Is there someone else here that can tell me more about this product?

Walk in a Cop’s Shoes for a Day!

In most cities, local police departments offer ride-alongs to build communication within the community and to create an environment of mutual trust and respect. This means, depending on personnel resources and the number of requests a department gets for ride-alongs, you may be able to join an officer during his shift. (Note: You will have to sign a release that the department is not liable if you get injured—or worse.)

Ride-alongs can be super-exciting or super-boring—it depends on the day. But the great news is, they’re an awesome way to train your brain to think like a cop, to spot danger a mile away. In some cases, you won’t just be observing—the officer may have you write up tickets, complete some paperwork, or may even be open to you spotting an infraction (for example, speeding, going through a red light, expired tags, a missing plate, and so on).

To contact your local police department to request a ride-along, simply call their administrative number (never use 9–1–1 for ride-along requests).

The “I’m Super-Crazy About This Stuff and Have Some Spare Time” Exercise

Sign up at a local community college to take a basic policing course. If you are a schoolteacher and have summers off, or you’re retired or even unemployed, and you want to keep yourself busy with a fascinating course of study, check out a criminal justice class. You can audit these classes, so you don’t have to worry about a grade. The knowledge you’ll obtain, however, will help you master the art of detecting deception at a pro’s level!

JUST REMEMBER …

• Open-ended questions are versatile. Getting the person talking gives you more information on their story and also way more intel on their nonverbal quirks and their emotional hot spots.
• Patience is your best tool. When you’re the one looking for the truth, you really have nothing but time. The liar will be anxious to get things over with and may trip himself up. The truthful person will just be bewildered by your odd mannerisms.
• Ask for the truth. Believing in people’s intentions to be honest—and holding them explicitly accountable for that honesty—may be the most powerful truth serum we have.