166 Liesl King
Interviewer
What do you think contributes to that kind of experience, that kind of
arena where people are just being themselves, where sexual politics or the
attraction isn’t a dominating factor?
Aynee Osborn Joujon-Roche
Well, so what do you think contributes to that positive? I think it’s that the
whole is greater than the parts. So, if that whole, whatever that is – that
cake that you’re baking – becomes the thing, this communal energy of
making this cake, making this record, making the soundtrack, whatever,
when you all – can get out of your heads, and just be in that creative pro-
cess. Yeah, it’s that moment of creation, right? That hopefully happens
in any endeavor where you’re making something or experiencing some-
thing – perhaps too, maybe you’re not making it, you’re not making the
music, you’re not making the cake, but you’re experiencing whatever it
is – the fire, the lightning storm, the things that are part of you, but they’re
also way bigger than you. It’s about the purity of connection.
Interviewer
We can’t categorize all men as a group or all women as a group. But if
you were to give advice – let’s start with male figures in the industry –
if you were going to give advice to them about how to help the women
in the industry feel included, and to be able to create that kind of nat-
ural ebb and flow that you just talked about, is there something you
could say?
Aynee Osborn Joujon-Roche
Yeah, that’s a tough one. It would be nice where, where things aren’t quali-
fied by gender? You know, to say – the cliché of she’s such a great drummer
for a woman. And she’s this amazing drummer, she’s an amazing woman/
female, you know, female director. You know what? That part – the gender
talk, the gender identification might be an interesting thing for them to try
to think about more. And I think that it’s happening too, because I was
brought up in, came out, and was still working in the culture where men
could still sometimes grab you in the butt or corner you – make you . . .
for example, ‘you’re the secretary to this meeting. No, no, I’m a producer.
I’m not. I’m not a secretary. Why is it, because I’m female?’ You know,
that kind of stuff, or the talking down.
Interviewer
Okay, so then, what about for the women, so younger women or women
new to the business? Is there something that you would say to them, that
would offer some insight into how to help create that kind of ‘human’ real-
ity in the business that you just described?
167 Twists in the Tracks
Aynee Osborn Joujon-Roche
Boy, if it was a young woman, the more, the more work she could do
quickly to somehow trust herself, to trust her gut, and to stand up for her-
self the way she might for her Mom. If somebody – you know – was down-
talking your mother in the grocery store and embarrassing her, shaming
her, or whatever, you’d stick up for your Mom or you’d stick up for your
little brother, or your little sister or your best friend. Why can’t we do that
for ourselves in an educational, doesn’t have to be a threatening, way; to
be aware of your own self, and also your responsibility even about your
tones – going back to the musicality of things, our tones – it’s not what you
say, it’s how you say it. So, sonically, the way you might speak to some-
body where they still feel like they’re not being attacked; the man is not
feeling like he’s being attacked, but it’s like – this would be so much more
beneficial to all of us, if, you know . . . but so many people don’t. That’s the
irony. That’s, that’s also the miracle of life, right, of aging, that you’re not
going to know everything at 20, nor should you have to. But, yes – I could
have saved myself maybe some extra steps had someone said, you’ve got
to believe in yourself and trust yourself, and you know what’s going on,
but you’re ignoring the voice. Which of course the inner voice knows.
Interviewer
I hope that through this interview, some young women/women new to
the music business will be hearing what you’ve just said. I hope they will
trust themselves. And as you’ve said, in a professional and heartfelt way,
the ‘could you think about the way you’ve just said that’ approach is so
important – creating that trust.
Aynee Osborn Joujon-Roche
And this is so key, foundational, fundamental – 100%. But I also asked
so many questions. And so all the men that I was around, that were so
reclusive in their own little editorial worlds – but the minute I approached
them with some curiosity – could you tell me why you like this or why
you did it that way? Then they would say – oh, I would love to, and then
they each give you little pearls of wisdom. And that also helped me in
where I was going on my journey to educate myself to become that well-
rounded person, and that also led to people going – she’s pretty pleasant to
be around; let’s give her a call and get her on the show because she’s easy
to work with. And that’s 90% of it. They assume you have the skills. So get
the skills and know yourself and trust yourself. And then it’s really about
knowing when to stop talking and listen.
Because in that particular field, you could be with people in a dark room
mixing a movie for 12 or 15 hours. And if you’re a pain in the ass, on any
level, you won’t be getting that next job. The rub is, you get confidence
with experience, but you need the experience to get the confidence. . . .
As they say, fake it ’til you make it. I was thrown in the deep end, and
I learned to swim and swim well – quickly.
168 Liesl King
Interviewer
So the next question is about the disparity in terms of percentages of men
and women in music/audio production. And I understand that there are still
far more men in the industry? Why do you think it is the case that there are
fewer women working, and especially fewer women in the higher, more
prominent positions?
Aynee Osborn Joujon-Roche
God, I wish I knew. Yeah, I really do.
It’s not a sexy job. Not to say that women are after sexy jobs. But it
takes a certain . . . I mean, now I’m talking about post-production, okay,
post-production sound, which is mostly men. I mean, it’s a technical job.
There are a lot of female editors, also film editors, because, you know,
it takes an incredible amount of patience. It’s a super detail-oriented
job, so you have to really be able to do that. And I almost look at it
like virtual knitting. You’re knitting this long, long scarf. And if you
miss that one little thing, then the whole, you know, unravels. So it takes
a great deal of patience. In so many ways women are so suited for it.
And there are certain areas where in dialogue . . . although I started out
in sound effects, but you know, dialogue is mostly women; sound effects
and sound design, because it’s gunshots and werewolves and who knows
what, it could be mostly men. . . . So yeah, I honestly couldn’t tell you
why. It’s just because there were more men in the workforce when this
started to happen, and it just stayed that way. And it’s slowly, slowly
getting better.
Interviewer
And so you see it shifting?
Aynee Osborn Joujon-Roche
More women are coming in. Although I’m so sequestered I don’t know
a lot of the new young female editors. So I’m not sure about that. And in
the music business, like any other business, too, there’s a ton of men that
are in power. But the music industry, which I don’t have a lot of knowl-
edge about, at this point, the music industry is changing dramatically too,
because it’s not like – oh, let’s give you a record contract and make a
record, as now people can make high-quality records in their bedrooms,
and you can get it digitized and out there in the marketplace. Now the
marketing – you need deep pockets for that sometimes, unless something
goes viral. But yeah, the digital world – you know, my music is going to
exist on Spotify and Amazon and iTunes, and all of that long after I’m
gone. And that’s really cool. You know, maybe there’s 5,000 people that
know of my music or perhaps 500 – whatever! The point is, it’s out there
in the world.
169 Twists in the Tracks
Interviewer
Okay, so final question, and we’ve talked a bit about this already, but what
do you think the male music production population can learn from women
working in the field? It’s a pretty big question.
Aynee Osborn Joujon-Roche
So what comes to mind. Oh my God, the first word that comes to mind is
collaboration. Collaboration. And to have that sort of inclusion as opposed
to . . . sometimes men come from this egotistical place. That’s just so – it’s
such a quick knee-jerk way to do it. Welcome to my recording studio.
These are my guitars. That’s my room. These are my mics. And what are
we going to do with your song today? And it could really be, what are we
going to do today? What are we going to do? Yeah, and here we have all
these toys and all these knobs and it’s going to be . . . but to make it that
because women, you know, historically are much more communal. . . .
And if that atmosphere was there, that sort of gentleness there – if men
can embrace a little more of their feminine side . . . of tribal . . . of say,
welcome to this space – a tiny bit of incense wafting through the room,
carpets everywhere. We’re going to make music together today. And I’ve
encountered those men, too. And I love it. And you get up and you’re in
this vibe that is the most natural high when you’re all vibrating on that
creative level of like, yeah, yeah, right. Did you get – you know, oh, let’s
go again. Right. You know – we have to do it again. Right? Yeah, let’s
go back to the fifth measure, because . . . and they’re reading your mind
because they know/they heard/they felt/they experienced it. So you’re all
sharing that same thing. And even if it gets a little bit off-track, you knew
exactly what to do to go back into that and in the corrective, collaborative
moment, that’s magical too. And there’s a beautiful high there. And it’s fun
to be able to experience that with everybody you know – and the old guys
with the old ego and it’s my way or no way – they’re going to be dying
out on all levels, right? – the my way or no way. You guys are going to be
going away. Just no room for tournaments anymore.
Interviewer
And I suppose just finally, because I always have a final question, but it’s
just to say is there anything more that you want to add about this topic?
The book is entitled Gender in Music Production – is there anything more
that comes to mind that you would want to add? Men and women will be
reading this, men and women with different sexual identities, different
roles/positions, people from different cultural backgrounds.
Aynee Osborn Joujon-Roche
Well, it’s the dichotomy of embracing who you are, which also includes
embracing your gender. And feeling empowered by that. As an example, to
170 Liesl King
write a song from a female perspective of, say, watching your single Mom
raising you and your brother – so that’s going to have a female through
line, and a feminine through line or a vulnerability. And so you know,
okay, so because the idea would be to be gender neutral, and to go into
a creative flow as human beings. That’s while still honoring the idea of
whatever might be happening in the project, while also the male, if the
male is doing something, to be gender neutral, but also to embrace maybe
his masculinity, of being able to comfort you at some moment or to be able
to maybe put you back on track because women can go off on tangents. So
then the gender could take place, come into play in a beautiful way. But
then to remember to go back to that sort of neutrality perhaps, and always
come from a place of trusting yourself, trusting your inner voice, because
if you’re not, then you really have work to do. You know, and if the making
of the art helps you do that, fantastic. Start from there first because then we
can heal it outside of ourselves if we work on healing it inside of ourselves.
Interviewer
Well, Aynee Joujon-Roche – the things you’ve said apply to my world too,
and I just want to thank you for this amazing interview.
Aynee Osborn Joujon-Roche
Thank you!
CONCLUSION
This interview with Aynee Osborn Joujon-Roche adds voice to the period
between the second-wave feminism of the 1980s and ’90s and to the cur-
rent moment, where culturally and institutionally, we are all seeing radi-
cal changes in terms of gender expression and gender equality. From my
own vantage point as a 53-year-old woman, it is fantastic to see the way in
which university students here in the UK express a range of gender identi-
ties, and raise points in class about queer identity, non-binary identity, and
asexuality, for example. The popular MeToo movement inspired by Tarana
Burke in 2006 has inspired professional counterparts; in my own institution,
Student Services has developed an ‘All About Respect’ campaign, which
particularly focuses on the need to report sexual assault. A young woman
in my science fiction class just last week explained that she didn’t know
why some women she knew didn’t call themselves feminists – she said she
asked someone, ‘do you think men and women should be treated equally?’,
and when the person replied ‘of course’, she said, ‘well, that’s feminism!’
While editors such as Robyn Warhol and Diane Price Herndl (1997) have
suggested through their title that in reality, the melody of voices which
proudly foregrounds luminaries such as Virginia Woolf, Betty Friedan,
Hélenè Cixous, bell hooks, Audre Lorde, Judith Butler, and Judith/Jack
Halberstam is perhaps better represented as ‘Feminisms’, since feminists
come from a range of different backgrounds and vantage points, my student
nevertheless argues well. It is perhaps also true that the introduction of the
more inclusive category ‘gender theory’, an umbrella term which includes
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